Gosh. I feel like I should kiss the hem of your robe or something Todell. That was something else - and well worth the wait… it’s taken so long to read and digest I don’t want to imagine how long you spent putting it together.
If it didn’t feel like strike breaking, I’d be opening a gold envelope now in the category Rewind Analysis Above & Beyond the Call of Duty Possibly Indicative of Psychotic Illness and announcing you the winner.
Desmond’s job history comparison was a lovely job – I’d agree with your observations about his addiction and his Elizabeth windfall too (but still waiting on a pay off for him sharing Libby’s husband’s name) and the camping trip as a self fulfilling prophesy was another point well made. The stuff about parachutes, event order and the identity of the woman behind the HALO visor was… brilliant! Nice Ruth speculation – not something I’d considered despite toying with John (among others) as a prophet and Island action being a prelude to other significant off Island events.
Also, the parachutist, we later learn, is named Naomi. Considering the biblical story related above, what is the significance of naming this character Naomi?
After the death of her sons, she asks that she not be addressed as Naomi, but as Mara; because God had dealt her a bitter blow and that name means ‘bitter’. I’m thinking now this is that name of Locke’s benefits clerk – Tamara: who dealt with him bitterly (so he thought).
Are we (and Desmond) being led to believe that he changed the outcome from Penny to Naomi, by allowing Charlie to live, when that's not actually the case? I was almost fooled. I almost believed that Desmond did somehow change the universe by saving Charlie,
Did he in fact work with it in allowing Mikhail – the instrument of Charlie’s demise - to go free?
Notice! The group finds the backpack, and the Portuguese copy of Catch-22before Desmond saves Charlie. It was never going to be Penny in that jumpsuit. It was always going to be the Portuguese woman.
I didn’t! Penny may speak Portuguese of course – perhaps she skis in the Serra da Estrela as she doesn’t care for the Alps. I speak two words of Portuguese myself (learned from the barkeep on a cross channel ferry) one of them is ‘thank you’… ‘tain’t what Naomi said to Mikhail at all. It was nice to hear his deception for myself and not need it explained.
Two last little notes about the Abraham story: 1. It's a story about the foundation of a people, the beginnings of a civilization. Something that we're seeing take place on the island? and 2. It's another story about the despondency that comes with being barren, and the desperation that one will go through to have children, which is clearly one of the themes of the show.
Hmmmm. Ben’s people, Jack’s people, Them, us, Dharma, Hostiles, the Others… you could be on to something; and having children is more than a lifestyle choice – ultimately it’s do or die for our species. Purging your neighbours and living like hermits isn’t going to get it done.
[COLOR=windowtext]Catch-22[/COLOR] and Lost. I'm sure most of you know the logic problem in Heller's novel: a fighter pilot wants to get out of his dangerous job, so he claims that he's insane, as the military won't allow insane pilots to fly. But the military counters that an insane person wouldn't know that they were insane (shades of Locke's quote: "Crazy people don't know they're going crazy. They think they're getting saner," from "White Rabbit"), and thus only a sane person would claim to be insane and ask to be grounded, so no dice. Get in the plane. Circular logic, a deadlock, a [COLOR=windowtext]catch-22[/COLOR].
Cunning isn’t it? exclude any middle ground, false dichotomies, proof by contradiction… it all sucks. I hadn’t appreciated before now how useful a tool Fuzzy thinking is. Yay for grey!
I’m guessing you weren’t first at the bookshop for a copy of Schrodinger’s Kittens then?
I’m struggling with philosophy myself; Descartes’ ontological argument for the existence of ‘a being greater than which cannot be conceived’ had me cold before he employed geometry to bolster his argument.
if Desmond (whose name means "man of the world") may be the symbolic embodiment of all these different archetypes on the island, what will his ultimate purpose be?
To be sacrificed – like Boone.
Black Lotus :
i think there may be a rule amongst whoever is making all this happen (team hawkings and whoever are on the other side ) that if someone is 'dead' or would have died, then you can save them and use them to further your agenda - because they are 'dead already' as it where. - so charlie should have died when he was hung by the others and he was saved and set on a course that would culminate (with help from desmond's flashes that delayed the inevitable course correction) in him turning off the jamming equipment in the looking glass.
Eko’s surviving the hatch implosion long enough to restore John’s sense of purpose (with Boone acting as mentor) fits this theory for me – but I do wonder still if Des and John are as alive as they appear to be. Sometimes but I get over it.
Caught the helicopter sounds as Des comes to, naked and disoriented post implosion, rewatching # Flashes… today. That was a first. Maybe whatever saved him was a lot more corporeal than fate blowing him out a ventilation duct or whatever.
Perhaps a lot of people in the Pilot were saved also - and set on a course yet to be revealed. That opening scene where Jack was the equivalent of superman was awesome. Perhaps more important than we realize - he saved a lot of people. What will their course be?
You have me thinking now, whether not only Gary Troup but his manuscript also, weren’t deliberately gotten rid of. But I like the idea of our principle players as a support act for the real drama. But bit parts in an epic tale.
The alternate world is real, and is just a different harmonic of our own world, in regards to vibration. I've also read that this is theoretically possible.
Thought you might like this:
Guitar 'harmonics' are created when you lightly touch the string with your finger at specific positions and then pluck the string. This causes both sections of the string, to the right and left of the spot you're touching, to vibrate simultaneously,
I did as were talking the fate of a guitarist. Two sides to the point of contact on the string, two sides to the looking glass, and both doing creating effects.
The Captain :
Charlie was the first to return from the hatch crisis, apparently with no memory of the event. TPTB mentioned in a S3 spoiler that Charlie was ‘changed’ by the hatch implosion.
I took this to mean he was already dead (from an early Victorian euphemism) but a dead man walking rather than actually ‘gone’ already. Of all of them caught in the Swan’s destruction though, one might expect Charlie to be the least affected, so I’m not expecting to see him revived by dint of recently acquired super gifts.
through walls would be a really useful power for Charlie to have right about now, wouldn’t you say?
I’ve been reading about a man’s frustration at his inability (and constant failure – he doesn’t give up easily) to walk through walls when he knows that the atoms of both wall and himself are mostly space. If he could just jiggle them right, he thinks, then he ought to be able to pass right through without even touching it.
But don’t ask me if he’s commendable or crackers. I’m going to bed! G’night Readers.
ETA: cleaning up my own mess here... *deletes duplication* can't get rid of that extra quote around 'Vibrating' though - weird.
Last edited by Liplocked; 01-16-2008 at 06:41 AM.
Reason: Posting tired, Late Night Poker, no access this a.m. Meh.
Just wanted to pop in and thank everyone for your generous comments and interesting thoughts!
Another question that I meant to include and totally forgot:
Notice that Desmond's flashbacks (so far) have been in chronological order, albeit heading backwards in time:
"Live Together" is his arrival on the island
"Flashes Before Your Eyes" is about his relationship with Penny
"Catch-22" is about his life right before he met Penny
Desmond's flashbacks are the only ones that have followed any form of correct chronological order--everyone else's jump around in time. What is the significance (if any), especially in relation to Desmond's travels in time?
I've heard it speculated that Desmond was meant to save Charlie until the Looking Glass, but I've not heard it suggested that Desmond was supposed to save Charlie from that death too. In Catch-22 Desmond was 'tempted' to sacrifice Charlie for the chance of being reunited with Penny. At the end of S3 the universe raises the stakes and tempts Desmond not only with Penny, but the chance to get all the Lostees rescued. Desmond even has Charlie willing to be sacrificed. But perhaps Desmond was supposed to resist all these temptations? After all, far from achieving a greater good Charlie's mission and death in the Looking Glass seem the beginning of a greater evil for the Lostees - the rescuers are a new enemy, the Lostees that get off the island are miserable and suicidal. So maybe Desmond did fail his test and these are the consequences.
I'm guessing he did fail as Ms. Hawking told him "Pushing that button is the only truly great thing you will ever do."
Prolonging Charlie's life so that he sacrificies himself for the greater good would seem a contradiction to Ms. Hawking's revelations.
Everyone's thoughts were interesting to read, I am left with one question though:
If Desmond met Penny in 1994, how could Ruth have said that the closest thing that Desmond ever had to a religious experience was when Celtic won the Scottish Cup in 1995? When Ruth said that it was a year before it happened???
After re-watching Catch-22, I'm convinced that Eloise, Widmore, and Brother Campbell were working together to insure that Desmond made it to the island to turn the failsafe key. Judging by the picture on his desk and by his greeting to Penny ("always a pleasure to see you"), Brother Campbell had known both Charles and Ellie for quite a while, and his choice of words to Desmond ("now you're one of us") seemed as if it were lifted straight from the curriculum of Others 101. His appearance at the time of Desmond's 'blackout' was, IMO, too much like Hawking's appearance at the jewelry store to be a coincidence. They both convinced Desmond to abandon marriage in favor of a greater 'destiny', both initially interacted with Desmond when he was in an altered state of consciousness, and, like Charles, both pushed him toward a future on the island. And without Widmore's generous purchase of Moriah Vinyards Cabernet, their efforts would have been for naught.
Desmond's discussion with Brother Campbell about the nature of sacrifice is interesting, in light of what we now know about the sacrifice that both Charles and Eloise made with their children...
DESMOND: Moriah...I find the name that the brothers have chosen for the wine made here, interesting.
BROTHER CAMPBELL: And why is that, brother?
DESMOND: Well, Moriah's the mountain where Abraham was asked to kill Isaac. It's not exactly the most festive locale, is it?
BROTHER CAMPBELL: And yet God spared Isaac.
DESMOND: Well one might argue, then, God may not have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place.
BROTHER CAMPBELL: Well then it wouldn't have been much of a test, would it brother? Perhaps you underestimate the value of sacrifice.
Is that the problem with all of the lostaways? Have they underestimated the value of the sacrifice made by their parents? Assume, for a moment, that Jack is right, that the Incident is needed to re-set their lives (and perhaps to avert the consequences of the MiB's loophole). Perhaps Christian, like Eloise and Widmore, knew that his children were needed to save the world, and that the only way this could happen was to send them to the island (a "leap of faith"). It is possible, in this light, to consider that even Anthony Cooper and David Reyes may have 'abandoned' their sons for reasons that have yet to be revealed. And I can't help but wonder whether Desmond's faith will be tested now that little Charlie is in the mix.
Sawyer's comment as he happened upon Jack and Juliet was classic ("Hope I'm not interrupting. You two arguing over who's your favorite Other?").
Naomi's Portugese-language version of Catch-22 could be meaningful on several levels. The most obvious would be Desmond's conundrum regarding Charlie (letting him die would risk changing the "picture on the box", and possibly losing Penny). The Oceanic Five came to see, in retrospect, that Naomi's freighter had presented them with a similar Catch-22. Eventually, however, they were given the opportunity to return to the island, realizing that, although they had finally gone "home", they had been far from free. And the decision to go through with Daniel's plan at the Swan station may have been another Catch-22 of sorts. Just what would a re-set re-set?